Responce+--+Living+Without+Numbers

**TOK & MATHEMATICS: "Brazil's Piraha Tribe: Living Without Numbers or Time"**
Source of Article: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,414291,00.html

__**Instructions:**__ Read and consider the following passages. Write a response to any ONE of the prompts below in which you offer a thorough response.

1. What would you personally list as some of the distinguishing features of a "primitive" society? (Try to make a list of around 5 items.) Would the lack of a number system be included in your list? Why or why not? Why might this be a culture to which you would or would not like to belong? (Try to give reasons both for and against.) Answer in the following format: Name -- Observation and/or intricate questions. (4-5 sentences aiming for complexity/comprehensiveness) > Lack of number system should be definitely included in the one of the features that appear in the "primitive" society because lack of number system means no mathematical development which concludes into lack of technology and communication. If a society lacks number system, there could be a lot of problem in society. The first and the major problem is that lack of number system won't allow people to communicate with each other effectively. For an example, if there no developed number system in a large city and there are trades going on, the whole city will fall in chaos because everything is out of order and not balanced. There definitely will be monetary crisis and also a lot of conflict among the traders about the quantity that they are trading with each other. Secondly, lack of number system hinders the mathematical developments. Maths are the basis of the all technologies we built today. Numbers are the languages that we created in order to create certain patterns or laws in our world and math is something we created in order to organize those languages and apply them into our lives. The results of this process are formulas that tells us the universal law in our world. We are able to apply those formulas in many ways in our lives and those application makes a society more advanced creating better technologies and making our lives more comfortable. However, the special thing about this tribe is that it is "primitive" and it doesn't require complicated number system in order to feed small population. > After reading this Piraha Tribe, I thought this culture has both boon and bane. The boon is that the population is small and nothing needs to be complicated in order to make the livings. > They don't need huge complicated numbers system in order to survive. Also if I live in this society, I wouldn't need to study 'hard' math as well. However, on the other hand, I certainly feel that this culture is not developed at all and lack of number system and mathematical development can sometimes definitely bring crisis. They could create a structure but without any basic mathematical basis, it is likely that structure is weak and will fall down. Like this, living the society that uses math well, I feel more secured and feel more developed and sophisticated. >
 * Chae Young Moon -- The lists of distinguishing features of a "primitive" society, in my opinion, would be 1. no written language, 2. isolation from the world, 3. small population, 4. simple technology, and 5. lack of a number system.First, "primitive" societies are the societies that keep things to themselves and keep it simple and all the languages or the stories are passed on verbally. However, this is ineffective since there could be error in humans' memories and some of the teachings of elders could be forgotten. If a written language is developed, the ideas and teachings could be transferred to later generation more effectively and it is likely that the next generation will use those learnings for other purpose. Isolation from the world also makes a society "primitive" since no ideas can go out and in and create new ideas. If a society is not "primitive" it is suppose to be active and want to develop new ideas. Small population also makes a society a "primitive" society because small population means small work force and it is less likely that the society will have spare time to do other things other than hunting or planting crops for their food. Simple technology is also one factor and this stems from the previously mentioned 3 factors. Technology only can be created with solid basis. However, if there is no way to pass on the knowledge, no trades of ideas, and no work force, it is less likely that it will able to develop any high technologies.
 * Shawn Lim- Features seen in primitive societies vary, but some of the most significant issues to consider are: 1. Concept of Supernatural and Afterworld, 2. Absence of hierarchy, or presence of strong democracy, 3. Development of sophisticated arts and technology, 4. Existence of written language, 5. No interaction with the outside world. Just to clarify, let the word "primitive" mean something very fundamental and unsophisticated in its form. To begin with, primitive societies often put a superstitious interpretation to natural phenomenons. For instance, for Vikings, thunder was a roaring of Thor. To "logically" explain how the universe was functioning, societies had to create interpretations to everything. In general, the more primitive the society, the more it relies on mythology and superstitions. Primitive societies are also strongly associated with Shaman-ism and totem-ism which are all based on unscientific beliefs. In addition, many primitive societies lack the concept of the world after death, thus explaining why historians attempt to discover ancient tombs;the tombs prove how developed the society was. Gradually, more people started recognizing this concept, but primitive societies have rather crude customs regarding this. Some may argue that Christianity and other major religions, which existed from thousands of years ago, Secondly, primitive societies lack the need of strong hierarchy. Though tribes often had leaders or seniors, those were to have the least power as possible. Primitive societies had to concern with their livings as they relied on unstable hunting of animals. Thus all members of the society had to collaborate as much as possible, and it was either "Be united, or be perished." There is even a term "Primitive Democracy" well summarizing this point.Third, primitive societies have less developed tools compared to those of others. Majority of people will agree that spears made of rough stone are more primitive compared to steel swords and pikes. Fourth, people may mention that the absence of written language is a sign of a primitive society. True that some of the sophisticated tribes did not have letters, like the Incans, but of course I am being pretty general here. Many primitive societies have strong traditions of folklore and verbal legacies, not ones that are documented. For instance, the Native American folklore are all told from generations before those who exist now, and these have been preserved orally for centuries. This is contrasting when compared to the Four Great Civilizations that all developed written languages that were transcribed to papers. Actually, Incans could only thrive for a few centuries, while Mayans and Aztecs flourished much longer. Lastly, primitive societies are naturally hostile towards the others. The members are put in the verge of life or death; they risk their lives to earn food and establish towns. Such people would prefer to monopolize the available resources rather than to have contact with others. Some tribes may cooperate for survivals, but that happens only when urgent.


 * Jangho Seo - The following is the list of the distinguishing features of a "primitive" society.
 * 1) Simple Technology
 * 2) No written languages
 * 3) Unaffected by current civilization
 * 4) Lack of number systems
 * According to Dictionary.com, the word primitive is defined as "simple, unsophisticated". I could not agree more with this definition of the term, "primitive." If we look into the primitive tribes in our current society, you will find out that most of them fits into the features listed above. Unlike our sophisticated and complex civilization, "primitive" people keeps things very simple. They don't require high technological tools such as computers or cell phones. They don't even have precise written down languages. The most distinguishing feature of all, is the lack of number systems. Of course, this does not mean that the "primitive" people have absolutely no number systems. They might have some methods for counting objects, but they would not know about special formulas for calculating and understanding certain phenomenas. These people don't need complicated number systems because they don't require high level mathematical thinking like us. They live according to their instincts and consider cultures and social life more important than solving mathematical equations. However, I do not think that this feature makes these "primitive" culture less valuable than our's. I would like to be part of this group because I like their simple and sociable culture. People nowadays think that being a "human" means to think complicatedly be different from other animals on this planet. I reject this idea because after all, we are also animals. It is not a sin to follow your instincts and have a simple life, like the "primitive" societies. However, there are some disadvantages in living in the :"primitive" society. I would have to give up all the high technological inventions.

Pros and cons of living in a primitive society are apparent. My concerns would be strongly associated with instant survival and pragmatic issues. As aforementioned, primitive societies would hardly require people to engage themselves in high level of thinking, like metaphysics or advanced religion. I believe that humans could evolve because of intellectual curiosity, and thus cultures that require little of it, for me, are a bit too baneful. Too much TOK is a pain, but it is absolutely better than no TOK at all...Isn't it tragic that all the knowledge I've learned in St. Mary's, including Mr. Wall's supreme TOK class, become useless?

2. Consider Benjamin Whorf's theory that "people are only capable of constructing thoughts for which they possess actual words." How might this help explain the Piraha tribe and their relationship with numbers? Do you agree with Mr. Whorf, or do you think it may be possible to have feelings or thoughts which no words can adequately describe? If so, give some examples, including if possible from your own experience. Answer in the following format: Name -- Observation and/or intricate questions. (4-5 sentences aiming for complexity/comprehensiveness)
 * Quentin Perrot -- I believe that language, as expressed by Benjamin Whorf, limits our thought, to the extent that without the words that portray certain concepts - such as the number system - an understanding of that concept is virtually impossible. You may say that, for example, love is something that no words can describe; in itself, the concept of love is a difficult one to grasp, and is a word that people throw around as if it had no significance. However, love is a concept that is described by the Qu'ran, the Bible, so, although some may deny it, describing love is possible. The Pirahas' did not have words for "one," "two," "three," and so on, and it is for this reason that they have difficulty adjusting to it when taught. Perhaps this difficulty, and the fact they did not have words for the number system in the first place, portrays how perhaps language is a reflection of a societies' needs. In this case, they did not need words such as "two hundred." If you speak several languages, you may come to notice that some languages have words or phrases that cannot be translated as the translation would lack some of the initial meaning; especially going from latin languages to japanese, and vise versa, some words lose their meaning; this is called untranslatability. For example, when poetry is being translated, a lot of the source language meaning is being lost, even though the translator attempts to compensate for subtle meanings in rhythm, sounds and semantic wordplay. Hence, language as a whole shapes our thought processes and sets a boundary in which our ideas can venture; it is for this reason that perhaps learning a new language is so tough, because it either extends your original boundary, or in the case of the Pirahas', reduces the boundary, where the number system can no longer exist.
 * Shawn Lim- Ludwig Wittgenstein claimed that language dictates our consciousness. In other words, language is a reflection of universe. Indeed, humans cannot understand any subject out of their capability. For instance, when Columbus came to the Americas, the Native Americans could not believe that three huge trees were floating on the sea because ships did not exist in the native Americans' culture. They had no word to explain those massive monsters, thus they could not understand what was happening. Instead, they had to believe that their spiritual god sent them a group of white, robust messengers. Another example is observed in **//1984//** written by George Orwell. The Party attempts to create Newspeak, eradicating any terms that may potentially degrade the Party's authority. I think the similar applies to the Pirahas. They do not understand numbers and their language has no numeral concepts. This also substantiates the notion that perception is only possible when something can be described by an existing language. Nonetheless, powerful emotions or shocking ideas may have not adequate word to describe itself. Bertrand Russel could not find the "right" word to explain how "shocking" it was to meet Wittgenstein. I myself do not really know how to express this sort of awkwardness when a lady came into a male bathroom (it's a long story...). Because people live in different regions of the world, no languages can ever be the same. There is no corresponding term to the word "self-esteem". Likewise, many Japanese vocabularies are simple not translatable to English. Hence, learning a new language involves learning totally new culture and ideas, expanding our boundaries of thought. In the final analysis, language is a mirror of what and how we perceive the universe. Yet, some of these "ineffable areas of life" cannot be understood by our logic, so I believe that such should be admitted of its existence, but not be explained explicitly.

3. The article claims that the Pirahas' ability to count is __//not//__ a sign of low intelligence. Do you agree? Would you feel the same way about an adult in an advanced society like Japan who could not count? Why? Answer in the following format:
 * Name -- Observation and/or intricate questions. (4-5 sentences aiming for complexity/comprehensiveness)
 * Gerard Belmans-- I think that their inability to do math has nothing to do with their intelligence. For one, they have survived for generations without support in one of the world's most hostile and dangerous places on earth, all without using any math. No matter how intelligent the western person dropped into the jungle is, his knowledge of math is useless to him. Can math track animals? Can math tell you if certain plants are edible? No. Only expirience in these environments help you. In that effect, the piraha are just as intelligent as us, but put their knowledge and brainpower to different uses. If they lived in modern japan, however, they would be considered stupid, as for us, living in a more technologically advanced and somewhat safer society, math is held in very high esteem. In piraha society however, hunting probably is, and therefore our values, and abilities, are drastically different.


 * Albert Takagi-- I agree with the fact that Pirahas' ability to count is not a sign of low intelligence. From what I personally thought, Pirahas don't have counting system simply because it wasn't a necessity for them in order to survive in their society. They didn't have the word for numbers greater than 3 just because they didn't need it. This concept actually applies to all of us. For example, if our science teacher tells us to count the number of plant cells or ,instead, the number of atoms that makes up an apple, would we actually try to look in through the microscope and count them? Even if 0.0000001% of the people might crazy to literally count them, my answer would be no. This is simply because we don't need to know the number of cells or number of atoms that make up an apple. That is why we have the words such like "a lot" or "many" to express them. Some of us might even say, "who cares." Besides, that is the point. Just like how we don't have a counting system until infinity, the Pirahas don't have a whole long counting system because they do not need it in order to survive. Therefore, the ability to count does not directly conclude that Pirahas have low intelligence. However, it is totally a different story if an adult in an advanced society can not count. In this case, counting is a necessity, or skills in order to survive its society, since that is the way how the country exists. People will need to count to do mathematics, solve problems, deal with money, read the time, to trade, and everything, which occurs almost everyday. And since the country is more advanced, the numbers dealt in the society also increases. Therefore, an adult in advanced society who can not count, would be considered of low intelligence because he does not have the skills to survive in the society.
 * Soo Hyung Jung-- I personally think that Pirahans' inability to count is nothing to deal about their intellignece. Piraha people are an indigenous tribe of Amazon natives who have survived the harsh condition of Amazon for a long time. According to the article, Pirahans can count up to only three. It simply makes them inferior tribe to people; however, they know the usefulness and location of all important plants and wild animals in their areas in order to survive. They fully understand the behavior of local animals and even know how to catch them. So, basically, Pirahans were able to continue their survival in Amazon without understanding the concept of counting (math). I assume that they treat 'counting' as useless or unnecessary process for them to survive. Many linguists state that Pirahans are just incapable of learning numeracy. However, I claim that they are cognitively capable of counting; but, they just choose not to do so. They believe that their culture is complete and well-established enough. Thus, it does not require anything from outside cultures (since math is from arabs). To sum up what I have mentioned, I absolute do not think that Pirahas' inability to count is a sign of low intelligence.
 * Taku Kitamura -- I agree with the article that Piraha's ability to count does nothing to do with their intelligence. I personally think that math is something that has to be taught by the experts and for those tribes, such as Piraha's, they don't have that kind of experts. Therefore, we cannot say that Piraha's ability to count is not a sign of low intelligence for 100%; however, math has no direct relationship with the intelligence. For example, we call a person, intelligent, if he has an exceptional ability to write an essay. We also call a person, intelligent, if he has a creative and unique ideas against a problem. The term, "intelligent" can be determined by any point of view and math is not always the way to determine one's intelligence. Although Piraha's seem not as intelligent as us, it is not impossible that there is one person who has a gifted talent of all of those, even if he can only count up to three. The reason why they lack of abilities to count is because they do not really need them in their society. Us, in the other hand, need math because everything requires math, such as counting the amounts, calculations in science, creating computer software, etc... Therefore, we study math. We cannot live without math, but Piraha's can. There are lots of intelligent scholars around the world with lack of math skills; therefore, I conclude that Piraha's ability to count is not a sign of low intelligence.
 * Aaron Olin -- I agree that the Pirahas' ability to count is __//not//__ a sign of low intelligence. I feel this way because intelligence is the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience according to dictionary.com. The Piraha's have created the ability to comprehend living among each other as a unified tribe. This alone requires a great amount of "intelligence" but the tribe can also communicate and "profit from experience." For example, if the men of the tribe were to pick one location to go hunting and they see no animals there, they would no longer to back to that location. This example shows clearly that they have learned from experience thus making them "intelligent." Overall, just because the Piraha Tribe does not have numbers, they are still a very intelligent. Despite this claim I have made for the Piraha's, a person who lives in an advanced society needs to use math and understand it in their everyday life. If they do not use math or numbers then I would consider them to have low intelligence. I feel this way because in a modern society such as Japan or America basic counting skills are needed to even survive. Life is mainly based off the economy and the use of money. If a person does not know how to use these things he or she will not have any chance at getting what they need for basic survival. For example, even if a low educated person wants to farm, he or she needs to know a wide range of things all dealing with numbers such as, how many plants to grow, how much land they have, the amount of their taxes, and many other things. In conclusion, people such as the Piraha who live in a very basic tribal society can comprehend within their own society and be very intelligent but an adult with no counting skills in an advanced society cannot comprehend within the society because he or she cannot carry out basic challenges that have to do with counting (which is almost everything).
 * Kento Watanbe -- I agree that the Pirahas' ability to count it NOT a sign of low intelligence. In a society were counting isn't an indispensable skill, that society's ability to count slowly attenuates. However, the skill to count isn't the only measure of intelligence in this world. The ability to perform a speech, the skill to make music, or being able to fix a broken chair; these are all types of "intelligence". I think that the Pirahas' having a community, living together as a tribe, and creating a language system are proofs that the Pirahas' are intelligent. In Japan, however, the ability to count IS an indispensable skill. This makes the situation totally different from the Pirahas', and if an adult cannot count up to 10 in Japan, he/she would not be able to function in the community. While the tribe does not use money to trade, the Japanese depend on money, and lacking the skill to count would mean lacking the ability to pay, making Japan a hard place to live for a person who cannot count. In conclusion, while lacking the ability to count would make a person disfunctional in a modern society, in the wilderness, it doesn't matter.


 * Harry O'Sullivan -- The article claims that the Piraha tribe's inability to count is not a result of low intelligence. I believe this particular statement to be true. The Webster-Merriam states that "intelligence" is the "ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills." In other words, intelligence is the ability to comprehend. The people of the Piraha tribe, living in their own secluded paradigm, have accomplished a way of thought that can be considered pure intelligence. Intelligence, in my view, cannot be considered the same for every single person on this planet. This wide, diverse world is the home to many different races and tribes, and the way these groups think vary substantially. What one tribe or community may consider intelligent may not apply to what another group may find intelligent. Intelligence comes from the environment, the ultimate paradigm, or the habitat, if you will. Also, intelligence is a broad field. Just because the Pirahas do not consider a number scale to be important does not mean that they are unintelligent. If anything, since they receive minimal contact with the outside world, the fact that they can communicate, build communities, hunt, is pure intelligence. Mathematics, as I believe, teaches us how to think and approach a problem in different ways when one approach fails. The Piraha tribe probably have a different way of thinking, a way that is different from "ours," a way that suits their ultimate life-style. That said, would I feel the same way about an adult in an advanced society like Japan who could not count? Probably not. This is because we are shifting paradigms; in a highly mathematical and economical society such as Japan, not being able to count would result in drastic consequences. Citizens of Japan must learn to comprehend rudimentary aspects and rules about mathematics to understand the intricacies of human relationships that he/she is subject to encounter during his/her life time. Without simple mathematical concepts, an individual may not survive, and will not be able to make ends meat. An individual such as this one may be looked upon as a degenerate, or an "unintelligent" being. On the other hand, as previously mentioned, the Piraha lifestyle does not place a heavy role on mathematical knowledge, thus knowing how to count would be redundant and useless. Again, this does not mean that an individual of the Piraha tribe is less or more intelligent than an city individual who has the ability to count.


 * Nari -- The article claims that the Pirahas' ability to count is not a sign of low intelligence. I agree to this statement because this is a matter of a difference in culture. The Pirahas' don't need to deal with numbers due to their surroundings, making them not needing numbers and the ability to count. But on the other hand, advanced societies like Japan are economically developed countries that deal with numbers everyday and everywhere, making it necessary to know numbers and the need to count. This means that I do not feel the same way about an adult in an advanced society who can not count when compared to an adult in the Piraha tribe. If the people from the Piraha tribe experience more numbers around their living, they would most probably increase their ability to count and deal with numbers. This shows that the intelligence level of human beings don't differ as much, but the difference in the surrounding environment making humans adapt to the situation and make the choices of whether or not the knowledge is useful and if they should keep it or not.